Danny: Hi Tara!
Tara: Hi Danny
Danny: Hi all our listeners. Welcome to All Our Brave Hearts podcast! This is a podcast about interdependence featuring me, Danny, a nonspeaking autistic writer and advocate, and my sister Tara. Introduce yourself!
T: So I'm Tara, Danny's older sister and staunch ally and primary communication partner. So Danny, being nonspeaking, uses an alternative form of communication called Spelling to Communicate (S2C). He literally spells out his words letter by letter on a laminate board that has the alphabet on it. That's his particular, preferred mode of using S2C. You'll sometimes hear him read his words aloud as he spells them, as you did just now at the beginning of this episode. Other times, you'll hear me read them out loud. Still other times, he'll have prepared his words ahead of time and has a text-to-speech voice read them out loud. So that's Danny's mode of communication.
As he said, this is a podcast about interdependence - how we are all connected and depend on others. We both believe that the more that people embrace this, the better the world will be for everybody. We experience interdependence in a very obvious way, with Danny being a disabled man and me being a very loving part of his support team. But interdependence affects us all! So while we of course appreciate the support of all of our friends in the disability community, we also really want this to reach beyond that.
D: I agree. We need more people pay attention to interdependence.
T: Absolutely, Danny.
D: So today's topic is transforming fears.
T: That's an important topic.
D: Indeed. So let's change our intro question to a new one.
T: Alright, so, if you haven't listened before, we start each episode with a standard question. The first one was "What is something nice that someone's done for you lately?" and then it was "What is an example of interdependence from your life recently?" So I'm curious, Danny, what you want to change it to now.
D: What is something brave you have done lately? But don't spoil the rest of the episode.
T: Alright, let me see. So we prepared the rest of the episode - a lot of the content - before this, in which we go into some of our fears that we've faced and transformed. So let me see, Danny... how I have been brave, how have I had a brave heart, in my recent life, in a way that we're not going to repeat later in the episode?
Hmm... so is not the biggest example or one of the biggest examples from my recent life, but it does come to my mind right away. And that is: I have recently implemented a policy or a practice where I have one week per month where I do not do work as a Spelling to Communicate practitioner. So I have no sessions with my nonspeaking clients. So for those who don't know, I am an S2C practitioner - Danny actually pushed me to become certified so I could help other nonspeakers and their families as well. And I love the work. It's so rewarding!
But it really does require a lot of energy and attention, and it's not my full time job. I still have my work with you, Danny, and also my work as a conservation consultant. Working those 3 jobs plus managing my own life was becoming pretty overwhelming. I felt perpetually burned out for much of the last year.
D: You were like a zombie!
T: Yeah, I guess I kind of felt like it. And it's hard because all of my jobs feel very fulfilling and useful and valuable to the world, and I enjoy them. But it was clear that something had to change. And for the moment, my consulting work pays me more, and Danny is a priority, so I figured that the main place where I could give myself some breathing room was to take 1 week a month that would allow me to focus on those areas of work and life.
And I was afraid to, because I didn't want to disappoint my nonspeakers and their families. But I realized that I would serve them better if I were actually, you know, not a zombie. And they all received it quite well. And the good thing with that is it then gives them a little more motivation to practice at home, which is kind of where we are: I need more and more of the family members to be picking up S2C so that their nonspeaker isn't relying on me, a practitioner, to see them once a week or once every 2 weeks.
That's a long answer and a lot of explanation! But yes, something brave I did recently was to establish that boundary and to realize that it limited, in some ways, what I was able to do with those clients, but it also was so needed. And I say that because I just finished my first "no session" week, and wow. I feel so much more present than I had.
D: It is so good that you did that.
T: Thank you, Danny. So what about you? What's something brave that you've done recently? How have you been a brave heart recently, in a way that doesn't spoil the rest of the episode?
D: Tough! I guess that I am practicing acceptance of my lack of a full night of sleep recently. And that is brave because acceptance is a difficult thing to practice. It is almost like a leap of faith that I will be okay.
T: That's interesting, Danny! If you need to sit on the couch, you can. So we were sitting at the table, but Danny just needs a moment I think to sit on the couch. So while you're there - he can still hear me - while you're there, I'll reflect on what you said. So you said that your brave thing is practicing acceptance of not having good nights of sleep recently. And that feels brave because practicing acceptance can be difficult - "like a leap of faith that you will be okay."
I get that. I might not be able to articulate it the way you did, but I can relate to that. So Danny has been having interrupted nights of sleep for over a month now. It's not as bad as the very dysregulated sleepless nights that he has had in the past, but it still is exhausting for him. He's not getting a complete night of sleep. He's going to bed, then getting up and kind of wandering around, then ends up falling asleep on the couch. It's been interesting to investigate what might be behind that and how to support him.
But what's really remarkable is, despite being clearly exhausted and a little bit more compulsive, how chill Danny's been about it, actually. I wouldn't be this calm if I were so tired. He says he's just practicing acceptance of the fact that he can't sleep and it doesn't feel good and he's tired. Somehow, Danny, you're able to experience that discomfort without getting sucked into a spiral of anxiety and panic and frustration over it, which I just think is amazing.
You want to come back to the table?
D: It is a new mindset for me.
T: So what gave you the courage to practice this?
D: I guess that I was curious how it would go.
T: Interesting, Danny. Well, I think it's going well. I mean, I wish you could sleep, but considering you can't, you're doing great.
D: I agree.
T: But yeah, it can take courage to embrace equanimity and strive for acceptance when our primal urge might just be to react, right? Somehow, reaction seems like power when it actually can take away from our well-being and power.
D: Totally. So let's dive in!
So I just had a therapy session. It was a particularly rich one. We got into issues of powerlessness, anger, and anxiety. And we explored how my desire for more autonomy and dignity manifests in my external goals as well as stirring up the interlinked dynamics of my inner vulnerability and my emotional protection in the form of anxiety and anger. I am so intrigued to explore this more.
At one point, we were discussing how to access my vulnerable self, and I said that I don't think that my anger and anxiety are able to allow that yet. And I pondered: I wonder if my external protectors - my family - stood back a bit from being vigilant for my safety, whether that would help my inner protectors ease up?
Here's the interesting part: as I spelled that out, Tara started suddenly crying as she held the letterboard. She wasn't even involved in the session beyond being my CRP. I could feel the emotions. Tara, what was that about?
T: That's a good question, Danny. It surprised me, too. So yeah, in Danny's therapy sessions, I'm really mainly just present as his communication partner. So I wasn't looking for any emotional breakthrough of my own. I was just holding the letterboard for you. As you spelled like "my family would stand down" or "back down," I suddenly felt overcome with emotion and I started tearing up. It was a shock!
D: It was so sudden!
T: It was! I think it's a lot of things, Danny. Like you mentioned, I've been examining a lot of how my life has been driven by fear and how that's been harmful to me in many ways. And I've been working to face those fears and understand them better. So maybe that was just a very raw part of me.
And it's because I feel such a tender responsibility for you. We talked about this in the Dignity of Risk episode, and in some ways this episode is a great follow-up to that one. I love you so much, and I also feel very strongly the role I have as your older sister and someone on your support team to help you achieve the best life that you can. And part of that does involve the very basic notion of your safety. So I think I am afraid of letting go of that a bit.
Again, we use this word a lot: that's a tricky calibration - how to be a good support person in being mindful about your safety without stifling what you could possibly achieve with a little more of your own agency. So I think it was maybe realizing how tightly I cling to my fears about you in the world, and how I wish the world were an easier place for you to exist in and how I wish you had an easier time. And I just love you so much. So yeah, it's a lot of emotions tied into the idea of letting myself worry less about you and letting you try to be more free. Yeah, it's... funny.
D: I am so appreciating your reflection on this.
T: Thanks, Danny. And I think letting go of something that I cling to tightly is something I've been working on. It's a release, but it's a release that is an unraveling or untangling, and with that comes a lot of emotion as well. But I was just as surprised as you when I started crying during *your* therapy session.
D: Haha, stealing the show!
T: Yeah, you know me! I have to make it all about me!
D: I have to say that it both surprised and didn't surprise me. You are also exploring your emotions and mental landscapes, and figuring out so much about yourself. It has been so cool to witness. I sense that facing fear has been a major theme in your journey. So maybe what I said triggered a part of you that is already in a bit of upheaval.
But you are also the most open to me expanding my life in new and challenging ways. You don't base your identity on being a caregiver to someone who you limit with biases and assumptions. You celebrate my efforts to grow. So I was not expecting you to have such a reaction to my idea of my support team standing a bit down in some ways.
T: So now I'm realizing that what I just said spoiled what you just said - I'd forgotten the order in which you'd written it! But yes. I think most people who are listening who feel a sense of care for someone or something they love (it could be a project or an organization or what-have-you): the idea of needing to let go for that cherished person or thing to thrive is scary, especially because you want to make sure that you're right, that if you do let go a little bit, that something bad won't happen. And if something bad does happen, then maybe that's okay - speaking of dignity of risk.
D: Dignity of risk indeed. I think mistakes are fine as long as they don't harm us too much. I am so sharing your concerns, like I have to accept that added risk for that greater autonomy.
T: It's maybe not the best comparison, but I feel the same way a bit as a woman who likes to travel alone and who likes to go running alone. I love being able to do things in a solitary way (I love doing things communally, as well). When people ask, "Aren't you worried for your safety?" Well, of course I am. But I also feel like I wouldn't be living in the way that I really want and need to live if I were constantly protecting myself from the risk of being attacked while being on my own.
And almost, if I sheltered myself in that way, those who would commit such atrocities against a woman on her own are already controlling me in a way. At the same time, I have to balance that with being strategic and smart and reducing the added risk that does come with wanting that independence.
D: Absolutely. My feelings exactly.
I am so curious about how complex our minds are. It is like an endless quest trying to understand ourselves. I love it but I wish it were simpler. I wish it were easier to be okay. But maybe then we wouldn't learn as much.
I think that we are carrying out the purpose of the universe by examining our minds. I wish more people did it. We would be happier in a more mindful world.
T: It's been really fascinating and intriguing to learn more, not just about myself, but about the whole process of investigating and trying to transform these fears. Even just trying to understand them is such a process, right?
D: Such a mystery!
T: And it's this intertwining of our memories and things that happened to us even before we can remember, and maybe memories that can be painful to confront or to acknowledge, and the world we live in now and just who we are as people. It's a lot. And it can be intimidating to dive into it. It's like this dark, shadowy, foreboding mess sometimes from the outside. Like a cluttered room, and you open the door and you're like, "mmm, you know what? Maybe we'll just leave that door closed."
But I agree with you. I feel like a beautiful part of being a human and being alive in this universe is working to better understand ourselves and that helps us better understand how we interact with the world - how we shape the world and how the world shapes us. And I think that extends to the whole universe. I think - was it Carl Sagan who said that we are the universe's way of knowing itself? I'll have to fact check that. Anyway, that really resonates with me, and I feel like there must be a reason why so many of us as humans feel so driven to understand ourselves, and why the process of doing that opens up so many avenues toward greater peace and joy and harmony between people, and between people and the Earth and nature, etc. etc.
D: I absolutely feel that!
T: So whenever we're facing fears, I guess we can be very grand about it and say: "I'm doing this for me *and* the universe!"
D: There you go!
I am going to bring us back to the topic of facing our fears. It is a lot more work than just being brave. I am so untangling complicated knots as I work to understand and transform my fears. But it is a liberating process. And it is so cool that you have been working on it, too. That helps me with my own process.
So my ingrained fears include a fear of money scarcity. It stems from not having financial stability growing up. We were loved and fed and cared for, but there was always stress about money. It is a chronic anxiety. And it is acute for me as a disabled person, since full-time work is not feasible and even if it were, I am not able to make even near the poverty level and still keep my benefits. And I need those benefits. So I feel like I have little power to address this issue.
This is something that keeps me up at night. It compounds my frustrations over my disability. It makes me long for more power in my life. And it is sharp now because my mom and I need to move by March. This will be a challenge. Rents here are so much higher than when we last moved. And I don't need a big house, but our two dogs should have a yard. And it is a shift from having a family house where we all can gather to a much smaller place.
So my mind has been craving some sort of independence and agency. And that is good, but I need to process the underlying fear. And I am realizing that I have a lot of anger around it, too. That is a new and surprising revelation for me. But it is helpful.
T: Yeah, Danny... this upcoming move is definitely a source of anxiety and triggers old fears for everybody in the family. It makes sense that you have all these feelings around it, and that you want to cultivate more empowerment in your life. I think that's actually a positive outcome from this anxiety.
You know, actually, last year was the year was when I was like, "okay, this is the year I have to stop being so afraid of money." Well, I'm not afraid of money - give me money, I welcome it! - I mean, not be so afraid of facing financial reality. And that's something that's always been with me since I was a kid. It's just always seemed so stressful, so intimidating, so linked to so much anxiety. So I just started educating myself. And I think the system here in the US is just completely bonkers, but we live here, so we have to embrace the fact that you need to build good credit and invest and all this stuff.
And friend and mentor sent me a book a few years ago called "I Will Teach You To Be Rich"
D: I want to read it!
T: Let me look up the author's name quickly. He actually has a Netflix show now, actually. Ramit Sethi. Great book, really helped spell out the basics for me. I still try to bury my head in the sand when it comes to facing financial issues, but I'm better educated, I'm much less avoidant of it, I feel a lot more empowered and ready to change some narratives I have around that, instead of feeling that I'm always going to be trapped in this mode of stress around money.
Doesn't help that we live in one of the most expensive areas of the world!
But yes, facing that fear, educating myself, and understanding the things I've done out of that fear - things like spending money without checking on my credit card or bank accounts, that was out of fear because I didn't want to face that reality, and that's not a very smart thing to do, for example.
I think it also helps, Danny, to know that our family has been through difficult things in the past. And while logistics of life haven't always been kind to us, we're so lucky that we have such a tight-knit and loving family. I hope that gives you some reassurance with this and any other future difficult situations we face.
D: Totally. We have rich hearts if not rich bank accounts!
T: There you go!
D: I am so impressed by your freediving experience, Tara. Can you share more about it? I could sense how much it shifted your mindset.
T: Yeah, so this probably would have been my answer to our question earlier, which was "what is something brave you have done recently," but I knew you wanted to talk about it later in episode. So yeah, a couple of weeks ago I got my Level 1 freediving certification through AIDA, which is one of the entities that certifies freedivers. And it was a beautiful experience. Literally beautiful - we were in Catalina Island -
D: So beautiful!
T: It is beautiful there! And the water was so clear, and there was so much kelp and so many fishes. So, beautiful in that way. But also, it was an experience that I'm still thinking through. It's a very mental and emotional activity, actually. We think it's all about the lungs, but actually it's about recalibrating your understanding and response to signals from your body. So for example, when we're holding our breath and we maybe have the gulp and maybe contraction in our diaphragm, like our body wants to breathe: that's actually not a shortage of oxygen, that's elevated carbon dioxide. And our blood, if we're healthy, is normally saturated in oxygen to the point where we can hold our breath and go much, much longer than that urge to breathe would indicate.
So part of freediving is realizing that the urge to breathe - which is stressful, right, and evokes fear - is actually not that urgent. Like, it's not that scary. We've just learned in our bodies that it is a lot more scary than it actually is. So we can go without taking a breath for far longer - we can tolerate those elevated levels of CO2 for longer - than our fears allow us to believe. And so by practicing going through that discomfort, holding our breath, going through (in some cases, for some people) really uncomfortable contractions, and being like: no, you're still safe, you're safe, you don't have to breathe.
Doing on that land, and then going into the water, I changed my relationship to the fear that the pressure and contraction in the chest evoked and gave rise to. So, on one of my first dives when I was coming up, I started experiencing contractions, and I could stay really calm, because I was like, "yeah, I know this doesn't mean that I'm about to pass out. It just means that I have more carbon dioxide than I'm used to having without breathing."
D: I love that! It is such a great analogy.
T: I can see so many different arenas of life where that analogy can help us work through redefining, re-understanding what the signals from our minds or bodies mean, and how we react to that.
And the other thing is, it's not like you're ignoring your bodies cues and just pushing yourself. The way I was taught my instructor is that you pay a lot of attention to what your body's telling you, but you learn what the actual signs are of actual danger, where you actually need to be cautious, and you also learn those signs that you can maybe work through and redefine your relationship to.
So, you can identify the signs from your body that you can recalibrate and you can say, "It's actually not a big deal, I can actually be a lot more relaxed, calm, and confident than I would have previously been with this signal." And then you get to learn other signals that are like, "now it's time to really be cautious, to really pay attention, to turn back." So it's not recklessness. It's not ignoring fear. It's reformulating your relationship to fear and what other signals from your body are.
D: Exactly!
T: But it was wild, Danny. Before I went to try to dive for the depth I needed for the certification - oh my goodness. It was like this wild rollercoaster of emotions in my head. I was so nervous, which is so funny because this is completely something that I don't have to do, and I recognized that if I didn't reach the depth that I needed to, I could always try again and I wouldn't be any less of a person. It's just a 2-day class, so there's no judgment as I haven't had time to really learn all that much.
But I found myself wrestling with all these old narratives. Being an overachiever, and feeling like I'm valued based on what I can do and how I perform, and facing the "what if I don't do it?! what if I don't do it?!" And trying to listen to what my instructor was saying (which was just pay attention to the technique and what your body's telling you - don't obsess over the depth), and trying to trust her... and then being like, oh! part of me feels really confident that I can do this, and then being afraid of that confidence?! Like, "what if you're confident now, and you end up failing - how embarrassing?!" Like... who's embarrassed, and in front of who?
It was such a wild collage of emotions. It was like the most bizarre slideshow.
D: Sounds trippy.
T: I mean, at one point, I was almost like, "I don't actually want to do this. Maybe I'll just leave. I'll just quit." And then I was like: Tara, you're doing this just for yourself. You wanted to do this. No one's forcing you.
Anyway, I did manage to dive to the depth that I needed, and it felt so amazing. And once I had done that, my fear around it disappeared, and I was like, "I really want to keep doing this, I really want to keep trying this and seeing what I can do!" So a lot of that fear and apprehension was replaced with excited curiosity.
Sorry, that was a long retelling. As you can tell, I still have a lot of feelings or insights that I'm still trying to better grasp.
D: I am so inspired to hear it all.
T: Thanks, Danny.
D: I am amazed by your experience. I am inspired to learn from you and to recalibrate my interpretation of fear. It is a bit daunting to examine it, but it is helpful. Fear is useful until it takes over. Then it is a negative force that harms more than it helps. I want to get to a point of using fear, rather than being driven by it.
So my goals are linked to this. I want to take the local train on my own from one terminal station to the other. I am practicing already with my mom and you are helping me prepare by teaching me how to use a phone and printing cards about my disability that I can show to people if I need help. It is so thrilling! But I am nervous. I feel that if I can do this, I can feel more confident in my life. Facing the small fears around independently using public transportation will help me face bigger fears in my life.
This is a powerful way for me to exercise and strengthen my agency. I am so proud to be trying.
That is mainly what I have to say about this from my own life. But I also want to say that we all need to examine and transform fear in how we see the world. This world is full of horrifying actions and events. It can be overwhelming. My heart feels the despair of it all. But we must be brave to face the truths behind what is happening. We need to face our roles and biases and assumptions. We need to be bigger than our fear of honesty, than the easy but harmful shelter of ignorance or a closed mind. That is my main message, really.
T: Those are powerful words, Danny, and I absolutely agree. That's a type of bravery that we all need to strive for. It can be daunting to examine our beliefs and how we conceive of the world, and to admit that we maybe have some misconceptions.
D: Absolutely.
T: It reminds me of some of the things we discussed in the episode on how to apologize, where a lot of us have a fear of apologizing. There's something holding us back. Maybe that's a fear of looking weak or admitting you were wrong, whether that's to yourself or the person you're facing. But I think that embracing this kind of bravery, and having that kind of open mind and open heart, seeking honesty and the truth - it's actually quite a relief once you start practicing it. You realize you're not hiding the truth from yourself anymore.
I feel like there's this kind of unease that comes on some level of our subconscious - for most people, anyway - when part of us knows that we are not being truthful with ourselves and we're hiding from something.
There is just so much going on in the news that is profoundly distressing, and we have this election coming up. I think this is a particularly poignant time to be thinking about your words, Danny, and to maybe challenge ourselves to embrace that bravery a little more.
D: I am so feeling the need for more brave hearts!
T: Exactly. And going back to your example of your train goal, which many of you might have seen already on Danny's social media (and thank you for your amazing, encouraging comments): it's super exciting to think of you taking this step. This was probably your brave thing that you would have mentioned in the introductory question if you hadn't wanted to discuss it later in the episode!
It's an exercise for me and the whole family: okay, he wants this, he can do this. We need to step out of his way and uplift him and make sure he has the supports he needs to do this without being stifled. And also, to make sure that our own fears around this don't discourage you or frustrate you or block you in any way.
D: I am so lucky in my support team! You are doing this so perfectly.
T: I'm glad you think that, Danny. We really are so thrilled for you.
D: I am grateful that our family is all in our own ways working on cultivating further mindfulness and courage. I am glad that my team works to build my agency and confidence. This is so helpful to my thriving.
What is a fear you are trying to face? Leave us a comment or message or voice note that we can share next episode.
Tara send us off!
T: Alright, Danny Whitty! So that is our episode on facing our fears. As Danny mentioned, please share your own fears that you are wanting or working to understand and transform. And please also, of course, like, rate, review, comment, subscribe, share, etc. etc.
D: I love your comments, so keep them coming!
T: Exactly - what Danny said! And I don't actually know the point of asking you to like or subscribe, since you're already listening. But please do review and comment and share, because that really helps us reach more people, which we'd love to do.
Thank you again for our regular listeners. We love having you here. And... I don't know what else to say, Danny. Do you have a final send-off?
D: See you next episode!
T: Take care!
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