Danny: Hi all, and welcome to All Our Brave Hearts podcast! I am Danny and you are Tara.
Tara: That's right!
D: Tara, explain our podcast.
T: I'm happy to, Danny. So All Our Brave Hearts is about interdependence, and it's through the lens of our experiences as Danny, a high support needs disabled man, and me, Tara, his sister and one of his main support team members.
The relevance of this podcast stretches beyond the realm of disability. Embracing interdependence is critically important for a future where people are kinder, more connected, more compassionate, and for a society that just feels nicer, better, more livable for everybody.
Danny is a nonspeaking autistic author, presenter, advocate, and friend, as well as ocean enthusiast. He lived for 35 years without steady access to reliable communication. I am his main communication regulation partner. He communicates using Spelling to Communicate - he spells out his thoughts letter by letter on a laminate board, which is his preferred method, and this is called a letterboard. So sometimes you'll hear him say "Red letterboard!" when he has something to say.
Sometimes he'll read his words out loud as he's spelling them. Other times, I'll read them out loud for him. And when he's prepared some remarks ahead of time, he'll use his chosen text-to-speech voice to read those out. So you'll hear his thoughts expressed in a few different ways on this podcast. And we are just happy you're hear with us!
So what's up for today, Danny?
D: First ask me the regular question!
T: Sure, Dan. So we ask each other this question at the beginning of each episode. Danny, can you give me a recent example of interdependence from your life!
D: I sure can! So I would say our scheduling and our recognizing that we needed more rest. We both were getting burned out and were trying to do too much.
T: Yeah, that's the truth!
D: I think we both needed to acknowledge that we need to change our expectations.
T: You're right.
D: It was a great example of us working together to figure out a way to be more sustainable.
T: Absolutely.
D: Do you agree?
T: I do agree, Danny. I think both of us have many reasons why we're driven to be perhaps overly ambitious in our goals and timelines. And for me, a big driver is I want you to do everything that you dream of doing. But because I am one of your main support people and your main communication partner, that does mean that I also have to be spending a lot of energy supporting you, which I love doing. But the reality is, with everything else going on in my life, sometimes well-being and meaningful rest gets left out.
And similarly for you, Danny, I feel like maybe you need someone to reassure you and almost... not give you permission, but help you give yourself permission to ease up a little bit, and to realize that if we approach things in a more sustainable manner, you'll still be able to do so many of the things you dream of, and you'll probably feel a little more settled emotionally and mentally in the meantime.
D: Red letterboard. Totally! So we needed to guide each other.
T: And it was really helpful when you reassured me that I was being too hard on myself and that you weren't disappointed in what I was able to provide you. [Danny yawns] Speaking of being tired, that's a big yawn!
D: So big! How about you?
T: So I'll pick this upcoming contract I have with Oregon State University, where I will be teaching an intensive 3-week course at their Hatfield Marine Science Center. So I'll actually be leaving for Oregon in a few days, and by the time you all are listening to this, I'll have arrived in Oregon and started the class already. And the reason I have this opportunity is because of my PhD advisor. She's always really been such an open-hearted and open-minded mentor and leader. And she's remained a very important person in my life.
And it was important to her, when she moved up to Oregon State University as director of their Marine Mammal Institute, to include some of the work I do in the training of graduate students up there. She really advocated for me to have this contract to design this exciting new course. It will be really nice for me to dive back into conservation for a bit, and income-wise it certainly helps, but it also is just meaningful for me to know that this mentor respects my work and what I have to offer. And she also benefits from it, because this is something she feels her program needs. So it's an example where we both get to help each other out in a way that feels very positive. So yes, that's my example.
D: So cool! I am excited for you!
T: Thank you Danny. And she's also such a big fan of you and your work, as you know.
D: She is so great! I will miss you.
T: I'll miss you too for sure, Danny. But this is a shorter separation than what we had earlier this year. Just 3 1/2 weeks.
D: And I am so looking forward to more time with Eira and Mama.
T: (and Eira's our other sister). It will be so nice for you guys to have this change to our regular routine.
D: Totally. So now let's talk about apologizing. Go to text-to-speech.
T: Alright, we'll go to text-to-speech.
D: This topic is so important for everyone. In my life, it intersects with my disability because people often have hurt me by misunderstanding my disability. Also, I have been hurt by ableist beliefs, and of course in the same ways that people often are hurt in the typical course of interactions.
I also have hurt others. It is always unintentional, but the impact is still real. So it is important for me to acknowledge that. So I am wanting to share about apologizing from the point of view of the recipient and the giver.
Tara share your perspective on how you have apologized to me.
T: Sure, Danny. I agree, this is such an important topic. Just as a side note: learning to be very intentional and mindful with my apologies has really improved my life. So in terms of apologizing to you, Danny, there's a few different ways I need to do that. First is for the mistakes I made in the past, where I was ignorant of what you were experiencing. I didn't understand your mind-body disconnect and how certain things were physically very difficult for you to do. And I also didn't fully understand the ableist ideas that had seeped into my brain and affected the ways that I treated you. I always loved you and never would have wanted to hurt you, but that doesn't mean that I didn't make mistakes or that I didn't hurt you. So that's one type of apology that I give to you.
Another is when I find myself, as we mentioned earlier, unable to fulfill the commitments that I've made for you, just finding that I'm too overwhelmed and I wasn't able to do something that we'd planned on doing together. And the other type is when you're very dysregulated, really struggling with compulsions, and often these are compulsions that can be frustrating for everybody involved, and I still haven't figured out how to navigate those without becoming fairly agitated myself at times and snapping at you. So, there's apologies for that.
And all of these apologies - it's important to me because I love you deeply and care about you. It's important to me that I acknowledge what I've done wrong and share with you that I recognize that my mistake, that I care about the impact that my mistakes had on you, that I don't offer excuses but explanations, and the explanations are not "I'm sorry, BUT that was a difficult situation," but "I'm so sorry, I've reflected on why I did that and I realize that it was a difficult situation for me, and that's informing how I'm going to work hard to avoid doing that in the future."
So there's a subtle difference there. I personally believe that explanations are important as long as they are not used as excuses. You're probably the easiest person in my life to apologize to, Danny, because I know you recognize the sincerity in what I'm offering you, and I know that you are incredibly capable of accepting the apologies and being empathetic in turn.
But the apologies for mistakes that were made before you could communicate: those are ongoing, because I'm still realizing mistakes that I made. Those realizations are really hard to face. I think someone has to be really in a place of self-reflection and being able to accept accountability in order to formulate a meaningful apology for those situations. I think it can be a journey for some people to get there.
I feel like I've been so inarticulate this episode and the last episode... speaking of apologies, I apologize to everybody: I am a little out of it!
D: Haha! So what will you do to be less out of it in the future?
T: Oh, you're making me live by my words, Danny! Yeah... I will get more rest, because we have worked on our schedule to make it more sustainable. How about that?
D: Perfect!
T: And of course in these apologies to you, this one included Danny, I do very honestly say "I cannot promise that I will not make the same mistake again, but I can promise that I will work very hard on it."
D: Red letterboard. That is a great approach!
You are a model apologizer. You are so mindful of it. You use empathy to understand how I might feel, then self-reflection to honestly assess your actions. Then you truly evaluate how to avoid hurting me in the same way in the future.
You might not be able to avoid it perfectly, but I know you truly try.
How do you go about apologizing?
T: I mentioned this a little bit, but I really think about how my actions have impacted you and how that must feel to you. And I really tap into my feelings for you and how I want to make you feel, and also I have a very honest conversation with myself about what and how I can change to make things better. It does take a lot of self-reflection and accountability and the strength to face the reality that I've made a mistake. And I just come to you and say, "I'm sorry, Danny, that I did XYZ." I validate your feelings, I say "I understand that it made you feel this way." Oftentimes, these are things that I know I can make progress in changing, but I know I also cannot guarantee that the progress will be fast or that I'll never make that mistake again, so I'm honest with you about that. I say, "I intend to try doing this - I still might mess up, it's not never going to happen again, but I really want to work toward not doing that again."
For me, the apology is not just about making me feel better and getting that guilt off my chest. It's mainly about making you feel better. And I keep the wider context of how important how our relationship is to me. And it's a safe space where I can give these earnest, relatively ego-less apologies, and it's also a relationship where it's so important for me to maintain the integrity of our trust in each other. And part of doing that is acknowledging wrongdoing and working to make it better.
D: I agree. Our relationship is so important and worth working for.
T: I absolutely agree, Danny.
D: For me, I always try to take stock of my actions. What did I do that was hurtful? Why did I do it? In my case, my disability means my body does things I don't want it to. So it is hard because my body may have done harm, but I didn't mean it and couldn't control it. I still must take accountability, but I can't promise it won't happen again. So I try to share my sincere regret, and also think of how I can reduce the chances of it happening again.
T: And I think it's also important to note that your intentions to not make those same "mistakes" again are further complicated by your disability. It takes a lot of practice for you, and guidance sometimes from a trained professional, to figure out how to have your body react in a different way. And these are things that definitely will take time and effort to change, if they ever change at all. So in your apologies, it turns more into a group project, of like "Okay, how can we all as a team work together to make these situations easier for you, so we're not putting all of us in this situation again?"
So the nice thing in that is that it becomes a community effort, and everyone's taking the amount of responsibility that's reasonable for them in that situation.
D: I love that reflection.
T: Good, I'm glad you do.
D: The worst apologies are those without sincere intentions. Though "sorry" is good to hear, it is not enough. Apologizing is more than the act of saying sorry. It is a process of acknowledging wrongdoing and working to ensure that it won't happen again.
I am so working hard to reduce the things I do that are hurtful. It certainly won't change overnight. I might never be able to avoid these things. But I try.
Tara what do you appreciate in an apology?
T: I appreciate an apology that demonstrates full accountability. First, I cannot stand people who refuse to apologize at all when it's necessary. Second, I can't stand apologies that I know are meaningless. And I definitely can't stand apologies that are like, "I'm sorry, BUT XYZ." Again, like I said earlier, I do actually appreciate someone gave me an explanation, but not as a "but." More like, "I'm sorry I did this. I think it might be because XYZ" and have that explanation not be just throwing it back on the other people.
So I appreciate demonstration of accountability and a sincere intention to try to avoid doing the same thing again in the future, as we've mentioned already. I also appreciate an apology that's clearly not just to make the apologizer feel better. It means a lot when the person has clearly thought about how the incident has affected me and who I am as a person and what means a lot to me. Yeah, I think that covers it.
D: Sounds good to me!
T: Alright, good.
D: For me, being able to apologize is just one of the many things I am so grateful to be able to do with communication. It is such a relief to be able to express my remorse and share my intention to try to not keep doing hurtful things. It is a gift to apologize.
I sense that people who are able to apologize well feel relief after. It is an act of connection, and of learning. Holding stubbornly onto ego does not actually feel good. It is an act of fear to refuse to be accountable for your own actions.
T: Absolutely, Danny. So I was going through a tough time in my life, maybe about... 14 or so years ago. And I found this book at a bookstore in Bangkok - it was calling out to me - it was "The Sun, My Heart" by Thich Nhat Hanh. And it changed my life. It really helped me let go of my ego in these situations - helped me really get down to who I am as a person and how I want the people I care about to feel as a result of my actions. It really gave me the courage to be more empathetic and compassionate, which was how I always wanted to be - I was just letting fear and insecurity get in the way. And really learning to care about what other people are going through - maybe care is the wrong word, because I always did care, but taking the effort to try to understand what people are going through, reflect on it, and feel empowered in myself to see how I play into what they're experiencing and feeling was really helpful. It helped me develop the courage to face my own wrongdoings and to be accountable for it.
It definitely can sometimes feel like you're on the edge of a cliff - or, more like, trying to convince yourself to jump off the edge of a pool, and you're just like "I'm gonna do it - no, I'm scared - okay now - no - ok, 3, 2, 1!" And when you finally do it, you're just flying through the air and you land in the nice cool water, and you're like "Oh! I feel so refreshed right now!" (I didn't know that metaphor was coming)
There's an inherent resistance that I think a lot of us have to yielding to that desire to apologize in a meaningful way - to take accountability, to demonstrate our care - but once you actually learn to do that, it really is a relief, like you said. It feels very empowering. I stopped feeling trapped in resentment and beholden to guilt as much.
D: So amazing to dive into accountability!
T: It doesn't sound that refreshing, but it is.
D: I think people are often in situations where they are expected to apologize when they did nothing wrong. This is tough. In theory, I would advise people in such situations to hold firm and be confident in not giving way. But in reality, this might make their lives more difficult if a power imbalance is at play. This is so tricky to deal with.
T: Oh yeah, Dan, we need a whole other episode to deal with this topic.
D: Red letterboard. Totally need another episode!
T: We'll put it on the list. I was once in an emotionally abusive relationship where the person really was able to suppress and crush my self-esteem and they were so combative, so antagonistic, really a bully.
D: Red letterboard! He was awful!
T: Thank you, Danny. I appreciate you recognizing that (and this was many, many years ago). But I would find myself apologizing for things, almost cowering, and there'd be a voice in my head asking, "Why are you apologizing for this?" But then I'd be like, "It's just easier to do this and keep the peace, and maybe he's right, maybe I'm not a good person."
For me, I was able to get myself out of that situation, and now I'm really proud that I have the confidence to recognize how warped that was. And you'd be hard-pressed to find anybody who could force my into an insincere apology these days.
But I do recognize, Danny, in your care: because you do have these high support needs, you might feel kind of a pressure to "forgive and forget" maybe, or to accept apologies that if you had more autonomy or independence in your life, you might not accept those apologies as readily, let's say. I recognize that it is in your best interest to be in good standing with everyone on your support team and in your community, which is definitely a power imbalance. I fear that people in these situations, for lack of a better term, they just have to deal with it even if their support team isn't treating them in respectful or even appropriate ways. That's tough. And I'm really glad that you have a support team where you can express your feelings about things. But I like to stay vigilant and to make sure that the apologies you're getting are real and meaningful and that they're followed up with real actions.
Oh my gosh, I'm really struggling to speak today. I hope that made sense.
D: It did!
T: And another point - we referred to this in another episode - you really prefer, when we're out in public and maybe you do something that startles or disturbs somebody, it's important to you that I say, "Excuse us, he's autistic" instead of "I'm sorry, he's autistic." And that helps me, too, as your support person, instead of feeling like we need to shy and cower away because you're "different" and you might do things that people don't expect. It's more empowered to be like, "As his support person, I take accountability that I didn't help avoid this situation. At the same time, we're human, and stuff happens," and we don't need to be falling over ourselves constantly apologizing for it.
D: Right. I appreciate that!
T: Good, Danny. I'm glad to hear that.
D: There is so much more to say about this. But we are tired so we will stop here. Sorry to not cover all there is to know about apologizing! That is sincere.
This is not prompted by any particular event in my life. It is just a topic that I think about. I think it is so important for everyone. Let us know what you think!
Tara send us off!
T: Sure thing, Danny! As always, thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed it. We'd love to hear your thoughts about apologies. Maybe you disagreed with something we said, maybe we left out something important, maybe you have a different perspective.
D: I want to hear from you!
T: He wants to hear from you, folks! On that note: please leave comments on Substack - would be great to get some more discussions started there - and rate, review, share, subscribe, like on whatever platform you use. There's a link to Danny's Ko-Fi account if you want to donate for his unpaid advocacy work. Not sure if we're going to try to record another episode before I leave - Danny, what do you think?
D: Let's try!
T: Alright! So, we'll see you next episode.
D: Take care!
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